Investing.com
Published Mar 10, 2025 10:30AM ET
JDC Group AG, with a market capitalization of €320 million, reported its most successful year to date, with substantial growth in turnover and earnings for Q4 2024. The company's turnover increased by 28.4% in the fourth quarter, reaching €62.7 million, while full-year turnover rose to €220.9 million, marking a 28.6% increase. The stock, currently trading at €23.67, saw a slight decline of 0.46% in pre-market trading, reflecting investor caution amid broader market conditions. According to InvestingPro 's comprehensive coverage of over 1,400 stocks.
Sarah, Moderator/Host: Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and a warm welcome to today's earnings call of the JDC Group AG following the presentation of the financial year figures of 2024. So the preliminary results will be presented by CEO doctor Sebastian Grafmeier, CFO Raif Conrad and COO doctor Amona Evans. So, after the presentation, we will move on with the q and a session so that you have the opportunity to ask your questions directly to the management board. So having said this, Sebastian, I hand over to you.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Yeah. Thank you very much, Sarah. It's a great pleasure to present you the figures of, at least the preliminary figures for the full year 2024, and we can proudly state that this is by far the best year in the history of our JDC Group, as it comes to absolute terms, but also to growth terms and percentage terms. You will see that, this will be a very happy meeting. So let me introduce my colleagues to you.
With me here in the line are both Ralf Konrad and Ramona. I just saw Marcus as well, but, as you're just listening, hi, Marcus. And Ralph and Ramona will present themselves.
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: Ramona.
Ramona Evans, COO, JDC Group AG: Sure. Hi. I'm Ramona Evans. I'm here for the first time, and I will introduce myself a little longer later during the presentation. For now, I'm the new Chief Operating Officer and I'm responsible for operations, for human resources, for digital processes, and for data management.
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: Hi. I'm Ralf Konrad, responsible for IT finance, legal compliance, and the m and a department of the JDC Group. Sebastian.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Thank you very much. Yeah. On the next slide, we just introduced the company to you really quick for the few that do not, know the company from scratch. Yeah. So we are a typical platform business.
That means that we have contracts with all the product providers, basically, in Germany. So we take in the data of more than two twenty insurance companies, all the mortgaging banks, the alternative platforms, the asset management platforms, and the investment companies. We digitize the data. We, standardize the data, and then we process it, and then we make the data visible in our own systems, or we load them up via an API structure to the systems of our clients. So typically, our clients is not anymore, the individual brokers and agents, but more and more, other fintech intertech companies, other platforms, more and more insurance companies, and the German banks.
So right now, we have about 5,800,000 contracts on the platform and earn about on average €40 per contract each. So the 5,800,000 contracts, that's datasets, and this breaks down in about 2,400,000 contracts. So, on the next page, please, so we can see that this was really, really a very, very successful year for our JDC group. We had a very strong Q4. For the first time, the company could achieve a turnover of more than €60,000,000, 60 2 point 7 indeed.
So that's a new record high, that what we did in the single quarter. And, it's also good that we are growing and the growth is growing. And, so the entire year 2024, could exceed even the very good Q4 twenty twenty three by more than 28% following or leading to a growth, a turnover of 28.6% over the entire year from 171,700,000.0 to 220,900,000.0. So that's even a little bit higher than the upper end of our guidance last year. And you also can see that according to the increase in turnover, also the EBITDA is growing quite nicely, also in real terms of by 28.9%.
But there's some one offs, as you can see, of 800,000.0. And so if you eliminate these one offs, EBITDA growth would even have been almost 36%. So a very nice development and, especially against the backdrop that top 10 was consolidated in the end of twenty three. So there's more than 60,000,000 organic growth in the year in the q four twenty twenty four. Yeah.
You can see here the table of the figure development, the q four. You can see that, that was the most successful Q4 and therefore the most successful quarter we ever had from 48,800,000.0 in 2023. The turnover revenues grew to 62,700,000.0, though that's also 28.4% growth. And overall, that's what I said, is the growth from €171,700,000 to €220,900,000 So that's also growth of 28,600,000.0. Yeah.
And then you can see how this breaks up in the different segments. So we will have more to this by Ralph in a minute. And you can see that also the most important line is always this gross profit line that's commission in minus commission out. You can also see that there's a nice growth of 17.8% in the Q4, leading to a margin of overall 64,300,000.0, growing by 21,700,000.0. So very very nice development also for the earnings figures.
EBITDA for the first time in a single quarter was 5,900,000.0 now, coming from 5,000,000 in 'twenty three. And the full year, we could grow the EBITDA from 11.7 to 15.1. So also in the mid of our guidance, so we're quite happy about that. And also, you can see then that the growth figures in percent, they grow even more the more you go down the lines. And, so EBIT is up almost 50%.
Very nice development as we think. So the nice fact is that the growth is based on, like, a number of factors, all the business lines and all the product groups are growing nicely. So the biggest boost came from investment and financing, especially the consolidation of top 10. First consolidation again was December 23. So it was the first full year we had top 10 in our figures.
So that's a little bit more than 20,000,000 on top for the year 2024. So, we have a very nice growth here of plus 56%, but so the base of our business is the insurance business that was also nicely growing by 17%. That's just a margin of 18,400,000.0, more turnover than last year. And all the others are back. You see that real estate markets are back in the retail sector and also financing is back.
So, some alternative forms, so that that grew by 10%. So overall, a really nice development overall product lines. Yeah. And you see this, that's what I stated. Not only all the product lines are growing, but also the business the different business segments.
So the still, the biggest part of our business comes from the 16,000 IFAs we have under contract, and this segment grew by 35,100,000. That's a growth of 31,500,000. But also our major customers that, we have on board grew by 30%. That's a margin of 11.1%. Also, advisory is back on track.
Here, we always tell you that you can expect growth of plus or minus 10% was also a very nice growth of almost 17%. So we can see that our turnover split is roughly three quarters is the IFA business, and about one quarter is the major customers. So very good distribution here too. Yeah, Ralph, maybe you go deeper into figures.
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: Yes. Let's look into the comparison by quarter. If you look there at the development by quarter, we've seen a very dynamic year, 2024. It's particularly noticeable that the distribution of sales over the year was very stable compared to the previous years. In other words, there was no weak summer with weak turnover that we normally see if you look at 'twenty one, 'twenty two, 'twenty three, this was not effect in 'twenty four.
And nevertheless, we had a very good fourth quarter with a record turnover, as Sebastien mentioned, of more than million in just three months. We expected a strong year end business, a typical year end business, but the development in Q4 was even above on that expectations. But in contrast to the previous years, the driver was not the insurance business, but the investment business. And let me please mark that this shows how important the balanced business mix is, and that I think confirms our strategy not only to focus on one of the segments. And at the end, we ended up slightly above the upper end of our guidance, which is, from our point of view, a very good success.
In the Advisor Tech segment, like in the previous quarters, that segment showed extraordinary good performance in the fourth quarter. The revenue was up by more than 31% to million and EBITDA increased by almost 19% to million. Some of you will wonder why EBITDA has grown more slowly than sales. And there are mainly three reasons for this. The first is that Q4 twenty twenty three was already an exceptionally good quarter and was hard to beat.
That's the first reason. The second is we again had one off cost for the integration of the top 10 group of around about in Q4. And the main reason is that a good due to the very good stock markets, we received a lot of performance fees for many managed accounts. And there, the JDC's margin participation is significantly lower compared to the normal margin participation. And these three reasons led to the fact that we saw a very good EBITDA, but a slower growth in EBITDA compared to turnover in Q4.
The personnel costs are up by 18.6%, eighteen point six %, sorry, a small portion of this due to inflation, the main part driven by the consolidation of the top 10 group. Same with the other operating expenses, they grew by 10%, including these 200,000 restructuring and integration costs as a one off. In the meantime, the cost for the restructuring and integration of top 10 and some more M and A costs are about this year, and that's the reason why we decided to show some pro form a figure in gray so that you can see that the EBITDA margin or that all the margins are even higher than reported if you deduct this one off costs. Pro form a, you can see an EBITDA growth for the full year of 33.3% reported 26.6%. The turnover grew by 30%, which is million, which also shows a record high.
We are very happy with this development, you can imagine. And some operational figures on the fly. New orders peaked around 150,000 in 2024, which means a slight growth. The number of contract transfers achieved an all time high of more than 560,000. And this figure is even more impressive given that 2024 did not include any mass transfers or bulk transfers due to new major customers.
So it was all operational day to day business. And as a result, our annual net premium on the JDC platform is now above million, which is a plus of 10% compared to the end of twenty twenty three. This all would not have been possible without our highly committed and highly motivated team. You have to realize that behind a growth of 30%, there are hundreds of thousands of additional contracts, documents, applications, processes that we have to or that we have managed without a large increase in personnel due to our automation efforts. So I would like to take the opportunity to say a big thank you to our team.
That's not very common because to say thank you, it's not my core competence. So at this place, a very honest thank you to the team. Excellent and exceptionally good job. Okay. Let's come to the advisory segment.
The Advisory division continued its very good performance over the year and has also achieved a great result in the fourth quarter with a sales growth of 15.9% to million. In Q4 EBITDA of million was achieved. In my memory, this is also an absolute record high number for the advisory segment. And for the year as whole, our advisory division is approaching the million sales mark, which we will hopefully see then in 2025. And we were able to increase EBITDA by 36.8% to a very strong number of million.
The advisory segment is now contributing more than 25% to the group results. Thus, you remember, I never tire of emphasizing how important this segment is for us. Here, too, I would like to thank the Phenom team in Germany and Austria. We are very happy to have you with us. Okay.
Cash flow statements. Let's start with the with the disclaimer because the cash flow statement is now presented at a very early stage. The preliminary figures are already discussed with the auditor. Thus, we do not expect any material changes, but cash flow statement has not been reconciled with the auditor, and there might be shifts within the items. We started the year with a cash and cash equivalents of million, which is a plus of almost million compared to 2023.
Cash flow from operating activities amounts to million, which is below the previous year. You may remember that we had around million of our twenty nineteen, twenty twenty four bond on our books. We then issued our new bond in 2023. And before that, however, we placed large parts of this €5,000,000 In other words, we sold them. And this sale in the cash flow statement was qualified as cash flow from operating activities because it was not the direct financing.
So that's the reason why cash flow from operation operating activities is below the previous year. But if you look at the real cash flow from the sale of all financial products through IFAs, then the cash flow from operating activities is up by million to million. So a little bit misleading from today's perspective. Cash flow from investment activities amounted to minus EUR12.6 million and mainly driven by our investments into our Sumitos participation with €7,200,000 and we invested another €2,400,000 in purchase price for participations and earn out payments into already consolidated companies. So around about million into participations.
The cash flow from financing activities amounted to minus €4,800,000 Main reasons for this were, at first, our share buyback program, which ended May or May 2024, sorry, with an investment of €1,700,000 and the interest payments of €1,400,000 for our bond. Just to remind you, the cash flow from financing activities last year was positive because in this year, we sold our treasury shares to Provencal for million. And that was the reason why this cash flow from financing activities was positive in 2023. The quarter ended with a cash balance of EUR 24,700,000.0, and cash on hand last Friday was EUR 32,200,000.0. Okay.
As always, some more information about share price and the bond. The share price is developing positively stable, I'd say, like this. It's you all know, at the moment, it's not that easy for smaller companies at the stock exchange. We had to close at 21.9 on Friday. This morning, the market has responded very positively dollars I think.
And at the beginning of our conference, it was back to $20.20 to €22 sorry. Market cap is around €300,000,000 We have 147,000 shares on our own hand as treasury shares with an average purchase price of €19.89 still. The bond is valued at million, is trading very stable at around 106% right now. And maybe of interest for you, the bond is due at the 11/01/2028, and we have the first call in at the November 1 next year at a quarter of 101.5% and a year later at 100.5%. Shareholder structure remains unchanged.
Okay. Let's come to the spotlight. The first spotlight is my new colleague, Ramona. We already reported in the middle of the year that the JDEC management board was being expanded. And now Ramona will be able to introduce herself in person for the first time to the investors.
Ramona.
Ramona Evans, COO, JDC Group AG: Thank you very much. Hi, hi to everyone. My name is Ramona Evans and I'm thrilled to be here today. I'm I'm also thrilled to be on board JDC as their new chief operating officer. I'm with JDC now for a couple of months, and I have to say it's pretty much exactly how I imagine it to be.
It's a great company with very smart and very dedicated colleagues, and I'm just very happy to be contributing to their work. And my job is to make sure that the company growth is supported by very strong and very efficient operations. And I've done that already with Check24. Maybe for those of you who are not familiar with the German consumer market, Check24 is one of the largest sales platforms in Germany and one of the largest insurance brokers in Germany as well. So, I've got some experience in dealing with massive growth and I'm happy to share that experience here with this company as well.
Maybe a few words on my background. I did my PhD at the chair of finance and banking. I have a background in strategy consultancy. I was with the Boston Consulting Group and I was also in the sales management of a German insurance carrier, which is tremendously helpful in our business model also to know the other side of the business. Yeah.
And, I'm a little bit of a tech nerd myself, so I'm genuinely happy about every work hour. We are safe with technology. And, yeah, I'm looking forward to shaping the future of JDC together with my colleagues.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Thank you, Ramona.
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: Okay. The next spotlight is that we wanted to give you an update on the stage of integration of the top 10 group. We already did this in last earnings call. Once again, transaction is done, closing is done, all regulatory requirements are fulfilled. We have completed the formal integration, means that in the meantime, all the entities of top 10 are merged onto the corresponding JDC entities.
And thus, please keep in mind, there the top 10 companies no longer have their own accounting groups. So we know that you are interested in the turnover and EBITDA contribution of of the group to recalculate the organic growth, but we cannot give completely accurate answer here. What we can say is that the group's organic growth without top 10 would be would have been above 15%. Within with top 10, it's 28.6%. And without, it's plus of 15%.
So contribution turnover contribution of top 10 is around EUR20 million. And the EBITDA contribution is slightly above EUR1 million and thus within our business plans. So yeah, we are very happy with that. It's more or less exactly what we have planned some years ago. The last thing left is the IT migration.
The systems are already talking with each others, means that they are connected via a set of APIs and we are already using features on both platforms, but we still have to merge these platforms. We now have two platforms in the asset management area. So that's work in progress and one of our important goals for the year 2025. This is my favorite slide. We show this slide to you every year.
Then we do our back tests of our efficiency gains and our scalability. And if you have been following us for a while, you will be familiar with this graphic. The columns show the development of the JDC Group's total cost. The overall costs are increasing, But in terms of growth in a very moderate range and primarily driven by M and A transactions from 23 to 24. It's mainly the additional cost from top 10.
And if you look 20 to 21, it's mainly the additional cost of the mom and mom transaction, which we bought then. And if you compare these total costs to the gross margin as a kind of cost income ratio, you can see without any doubt that our platform is scaling. In 2018, the ratio was above 105%. And today, it's already below 90% and will soon, I think next year, be definitely below 85%. The efficiency gains in 2024 were achieved with many tools and automation efforts.
But if you remember, exactly one year ago, we told you that in the year 2024, we plan to optimize the first processes using an AI platform, which we, at this time, were actually pair programming with a team of external specialists. And today, one year later, this platform is live and helps us to provide insurer data much faster, much cheaper, and in a better quality to the broker. So a big success, and this platform will help us to gain further efficiency in the upcoming years as well. So I'm very convinced, when we meet next year here, the trend will still be our friend. Sebastian?
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Yes. Some words to our guidance. So you see that there's a lot of checks in the boxes, so and check marks. So, you can see our guidance was in turnover 2.5 to two twenty. So with 02/2009, we are just a little bit above the upper end of our guidance, which is a nice check mark.
But also, EBITDA is on track. So we guided 14.5 to 16,000,000. You can see that one offs led to we are also on the upper end of the guidance with 15,900,000.0 minus 800,000.0 in one offs. So with 15,100,000.0, we are mid of the guidance. But also our individual goals for 2024, we could reach all of them as Ralph reported.
Integration of top 10 group is 95% done. We have now from Sumitas in 'twenty four, we saw about 600,000 in gross margin. So also check the box. We have our refocus on smaller IFAs. We have a marketing campaign and also refocusing of our sales team to the mid sized and small IFA groups.
And also there, we are making progress. You could see that a lot of growth comes from this very big chunk in our business, also growing even more than the major customer business, so very content with this development. And also our major customers could grow with more than 30%. So also here, a very nice development. Yes, we are expanding our IT cooperation with insurance companies, both in the Morgan Morgan side, and also, in more delivering more and more services to insurance companies themselves.
Yes. As Ralph said, we were very successfully tried out the first processes and projects in AI, and we could save quite a bit in resources by, like, gearing up our digital quota to more than 90% in the business groups where we use AI. And this means that cost in these sales channels goes down significantly. In the end, 12 to 15 employees could be moved to other parts of the company, and that gives the cost savings, making us more efficient as Ralph showed in the slide before. And also, that's what we are aiming at, just our economies of scale.
The cost per contract is first reduced as also Ralph showed. So we're very happy that we can have a very clean sheet here on the guidance of 2024. Yeah, this brings us to the guidance in the year 2025 from 220,900,000.0 in 'twenty four, we want to grow to $245,000,000 to $265,000,000 in turnover, resulting in EBITDA growth that is significant from 15,100,000.0 in the year 2024. We want to achieve 18,500,000.0 to 20,500,000.0. So, hopefully, we can see the 20,000,000 that that would be a very good development over the last years.
And also our individual goals, we we think are challenging, but but achievable. So we want to integrate the Morgan Moore, comparison platform to the JDC platform. So we will now combine the product intelligence of Morgan Morgan with the broker management platform. It's a very good and important project. Also, our asset management platform that's Deutsche Finance Portfolio for Weilertung.
As you remember, we merged our PBV our managing accounts platform into the management platform of DFP with a very nice development. And also, Sumitas, we want to grow our margin coming from Zumitaz and are looking at a pipeline of M and A transactions that might or might not be signed. So, here we still see ourselves as being ideally positioned as being one of the main consolidators of the market with all our very stable shareholder groups and also with this very nice growth and development. Yes, we definitely want to develop our IT platform even more. We still think we are the service provider of choice for all the institutions that are looking for an IT platform.
And, yeah, we also will continue to scale up the JAC platform with AI projects. So now two of our business lines already run with support of AI, processes, and, this we want to expand to the rest of the business lines. And then obviously, that's a known point year over year over year. We want to use economies of scale and also firstly reduce our costs per contract. So we think that we have very strong base for the development in 2025 with good KPIs beginning in the year.
But as always, right, our business is depending on further developments of the global national economic environment. You see some there were some heavy clouds in the German above the German economy. You see after elections there, many see some lights on the end of the tunnel and, some change to the better. Obviously, all of this is influencing consumer confidence, and that's what retail investors in the capital markets need and also what insurance clients need to buy more product. But overall, we're confident that we are in a very good environment and can grow even more in the coming years.
Yeah. This this gives us a new outlook for 02/1930. As you could remember, in 2020, we're very bold, and we said, we want to come to $250,000,000 in turnover in the year '25. And at that time, we want to multiply our EBITDA. I know that many listeners made a quadrupling of our EBITDA.
So it's up to $20,000,000 You can see that we are quite certain to get in this direction. You can see that our guidance is in the median higher than the $250,000,000 and also the EBITDA expectations are in this direction. So I think we did a good job in telling a vision of the future in the year 2020 looking into 2025. And this is what we were asked by many of you. Can't you give us, like, an outlook, what JDC could look like in the year 02/1930?
And I think it's important to know that our market share is still very, very small, right? We are depends what figure you're looking at. We had 0.6% market share, and we don't see why we can, like, quadruple or even ten ten times the turnover. If you see the mature platform businesses, these have easily 10% or more of the market. So there is no ceiling here.
So we think that step by step by step, we can move turnover in the direction of €500,000,000 and also move EBITDA then, and this is a clear result, to €40,000,000 to €50,000,000 And that's what Ralph and I was thinking when we are looking in our own future. We were asked by the supervisor board, whether we are not open to extend our contracts for the next five years, and we happily agreed, after some discussions where we can go and what we can develop the company into. Because we think with these figures of 500,000,000 turnover, 50,000,000 in EBITDA at a more, yeah, a continued growth path. You know, that's that's what we wanna see. I think, we can vision, envision the the evaluation at not being a 300,000,000, but rather coming in the direction of a billion euros.
And this is what Rolf and I and the team, Ramona and Marcus will fight for, that we have, yeah, one of the marketing German investment and insurance industry. And why are we so convinced that this will work? We are in the core of these four megatrends in the German finance industry. You can see that digitization is like now for the last ten years, the word and the the main concern of all these companies in the market. So, in the in the insurance industry will not be the last industry that not that's not digitizing, so this is just a given.
And also demography tells us that the average age of the intermediaries is so high, and it's growing year by year with such a high margin that half of the holders of contracts will go out of business in the next ten years. So there's a huge pond of fish out there that the bigger fish can eat up. And this leads to buying portfolios, buying brokers, and also buying other platforms as we did with top 10. So this leads naturally to the next point. Yeah, there's a big consolidation game now already going on, but it's it's rather the start because the market is very fragmented still.
There's a lot of other platforms still out there. Who read the Oliver Wyman study, there's only, like, three big platforms that are growing. They are big and they are profitable, and the rest is rather not. So that means that, the bigger platforms in the market have the best, outset and starting point. Yeah.
We see it, we can say, as a pole position for market consolidation, And I think we can play a good role in this. And regulation, you can see that now there is some trend to take back some of the ESG regulation, but combined with data protection, the data transparency, only the big players will be able to really transform in this regulatory environment and also transform the IT platforms, and they'll be back at digitization. So that's just a combination of these four drivers, and I think we are ideally positioned. I'm happy that, here, Ralph is on my side, you know, in a now, now it's a twenty two year old marriage, and now we go we're at least now open and and convinced that we can go in into the year '27, Ralph. Right?
And put together with Ramona and Marcus, I think we have a very good management platform as well. Ralph, maybe you want to add to your personal decision.
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: Nothing to add.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: So yes. So we thank you for your attention. And, so we'll be with you, as as your management in this company and try to drive your value. And hopefully, you still trust us and, yeah, help us to fulfill our aims. Thank you very much, and we're happy to take all you might have.
Sara?
Sarah, Moderator/Host: Yeah. So thank you so much for your presentation, and congratulations on the results. So we will now move over to our q and a session. So for a dynamic conversation, we appreciate it. If you would ask your questions in person by audio line.
To do so, just raise up your virtual hand or if you have dialed in by phone, you can do this with the key combination star k nine followed by star k six, and you can also place your questions in our chat box. And We will start with the first one with Benjamin Kornke. So you should be able to speak now.
Benjamin Kornke, Analyst: Dan, can you hear me now?
Lukas Frank, Analyst: Yes.
Benjamin Kornke, Analyst: Super. Good afternoon, gentlemen. Thank you very much for the presentation. Let me start with, I guess, a bit of a typical question if companies provide an outlook range. Can you talk a little bit more about the assumptions that go into, let's say, the high end and the low end of that guidance range?
And maybe related to that, what sort of contribution from M and A is baked into this, if at all. The second question would be around gross margins, if I may. And that is, obviously, what we see is the gross margins continue to trend down, understandably. So I guess the question is how should we think about the development of gross margins going forward? And Ralph, if I recall correctly, you once said that you expect an annual contraction by around 50 basis points or so.
Is this still valid? And maybe related to this, just wondering how we should think about gross margins in the mid to long term, I. E. Where do you expect gross margin to settle over the next sort of few years? And maybe thirdly, can you talk a little bit more about the contribution from Sumitas in 2024?
Is there anything extraordinary you would point out? And, I guess also here, let's say, how do you expect or what do you expect Sumitest to contribute in 2025? And maybe very lastly, apologies for that. What is the profit, Sebastian, if you could remind me, what is the profitability profile of Sumitas and to what extent does it dilute your current margins, if at all? Thank you.
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: Okay, Ben. Thank you for your questions. At first, the guidance next year is without any M and A activities. As always, when we do our planning, we plan with the contract that we have already signed, and that's enough, let's say, uncertainty for the planning. So no M and A activities included.
If we would do some M and A activities, then there might be a bigger growth. Yes, you're right. Cross margin is trending down. The reason is at first competition. Sebastian can give some color on this.
And the fact that more and more business is coming from bigger intermediaries, which is a result of the consolidation. So I think this is a trend that we will see for the next years that we will lose, let's say, 50 to 60 basis points. But on the other hand, we are growing fast and we are able to scale our platform and deliver the services at a lower cost per unit. So that's the reason why we still think that there's a question in the chat that the EBITDA development will not flatten. This was a very special situation in the fourth quarter because of this managed accounts thing.
Yes, maybe that as a first respond. And Sebastian, maybe you can give some answer to Sumitos.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Yeah. We are very thank you for your questions, Ben. Yes. We are happy with the development of Sumitas. You could see that in December.
We could sign and close the one of the biggest or actually, it's the biggest occupational pension platforms in Germany. It's the broker BDUK, with a turnover of more than €40,000,000, that came to the book of Sumitas. This is, it's also developing nicely. It's growing and very profitable with a profitability more than 10,000,000 EBITDA. So Sumitas is now a grown up company, with more than 30,000,000 EBITDA and more than 55,000,000 in turnover.
So really nice development. So for 2024, Ralph, you correct me, we have about €550,000 in additional margin from Sumitas. And this we expect to grow in 2025 to more than €1,500,000 So we don't think this dilutes maybe on the contrary because we saw that this very specialized business of the occupational pension platform does not really fit into our more retail oriented platform. So we will just have more income on the margin level. So most of the commissions of BBUK will not go from the top line to the payouts of commission, but will contribute in the margin level.
So this will not dilute our margin, rather on the contrary. And that's also the profitability profile that you asked for. It's it will be a a very nice contribution on the margin level, and that's what we expected to earn, but 1 and a half to 2,000,000 over the long run-in EBITDA. So, very happy with this development
Benjamin Kornke, Analyst: here. Right.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Answer your question, hopefully.
Benjamin Kornke, Analyst: Yes. Yes. Thank you very much. Maybe just coming back to my first question, Ralph. I mean, thank you for answering the M and A part related to your 2025 guidance.
But maybe just to the rest, so what defines the lower and the upper end of your guidance range, I. E. What needs to happen for JDC to come out, let's say, at the high end and, what's baked into the low end just to get a feeling there?
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Yeah. I think when we did our planning and also our guidance session, we are rather conservative. Right? So you can see that the growth is only 13% to 16% knowing that in the past, we have an average growth of 16% in the company. That's our, like, yeah, four year mid CAGR.
So we see that the platform is ideally positioned, and we have strong business. But on the other hand, there is some clouds above the world economy and also German economy, and this gives us a more conservative outlook. We're happy if we see the turnaround in Germany. You can see that the, all the the the business confidence figures are on a a, a very, like, all time low. Right?
So this the third year, the last coalition government led us to a three year depression, basically, in Germany with sentiment being quite low. There was a election that what business leaders think is is rather successful. It promises to be a stable government. And then there's big hopes that the economy is turning up in Germany, but this is what we did not price into our growth figures. We rather think that, the sentiment will rather stay a little bit low in Germany and therefore, this conservative outlook for our turnover and and the rest, when it comes to, the costs and and and, then also earnings, it's just a progression of all the measures we took, using more AI, saving on costs, becoming more efficient.
So we see that the EBITDA figures will increase much more as the turnover picks up. And that's exactly what we want to show you that the platform is scaling and we're earning more money year over year over year.
Benjamin Kornke, Analyst: Understood. Understood. Thank you very much.
Sarah, Moderator/Host: Thank you for your questions. So we'll now move on with the questions from Lukas Frank.
Lukas Frank, Analyst: Yes. Hi, good afternoon altogether. I would like to also go more into the financial numbers Concerning let's start with the 02/1930 guidance also related to M and A or organic split. Did you factor in any organic inorganic, so from M and A effects into your $450,000,000 to 500,000,000 for 02/1930? Or is this just organic?
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: Okay. When you go back to 2020, we told you that we will double turn over to €250,000,000 within five years. And for the next five years, today, we do not know what company we could buy. But given the fact that the market is consolidating, of course, we will take opportunities or use opportunities if we will see opportunities. We grow on average, as Sebastian said, by 15%.
The bigger you are, the harder it is to keep this pace. So yes, there will be some M and A activities, but we will be able to achieve this goal or almost this goal even without M and A activities, Sebastian. Would you agree or disagree?
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Well, it depends, you know, then. Is Sumitas organic or not? Right? So that's a it's a it's a question of definition. So we will definitely keep on supporting, Sumitas with platform technology and also investments.
For us as a platform, it's it's organic. Right? But then in the investing, we can as well claim that this is not. And then, we are already buying a lot of portfolios of our brokers that go out of business. So that's, of yeah.
You can say that's m and a, but in the end, it's just organic because we just natural buyer or or yeah, the the the the last piece of work for the clients that that are left in the market. So, that so we would consider organic as well. Also, you can argue that. And, yes, there if there's other platform, yeah, opportunities that we saw in top 10 in the end, top 10 was exactly as successful as we wanted it to be. Now with a push in the capital markets, it was a very wise decision, although, it was not an easy one in the beginning.
So, yes, we will definitely we are in the pole position for this consolidation game in the market, and we will use any opportunity we will get.
Lukas Frank, Analyst: Okay. And then going more from top line to bottom line, if I remember our last conversations, you had more the ambition or the target to reach a 12% EBITDA margin going forward. Now if I calculate the margin on your 02/1930 guidance, we talk more about 10%. So is there still room for, let's say, positive surprise or did change anything in the last month or quarters concerning your margin profile going forward?
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Yes. Yes. What we said is once we are at a billion, right, we said we will earn 120,000,000. So we still are there that, obviously, in these businesses, you can imagine a earnings margin of 12% to 14% at the most. But as you can see, as long as we pay out 72% of our commissions that we earned, then there's a natural ceiling, obviously.
Right? So, yes, there is also positive surprise. It also depends on whether this trend that platforms do not only they are not not always in the in the intermediary chain, right, where you get in commission, then you pay it out, but rather provide platform services as a service provider paying value added tax. This if this goes on, you will see that there will be more margin to the commission. So in the end, it's rather on the absolute figure of the margin, but at the percentage points.
Right? So and then also this goes for the for the bottom line, because in the end, it doesn't really matter whether you earn 50,000,000 on 500,000,000 or on 400,000,000.
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: Yep. And let me please add, there's there's no change in our view or there is no change. It's just, let's say, we want to give you an outlook, but let's be cautious, well, so that it's, from our point of view, very good achievable.
Lukas Frank, Analyst: Okay. And then third question, to the investment side, in the past, you had more or less very low investments. Will this be also the case for 2025 to 02/1930? Or do you have to make any bigger investments we should bear in mind?
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: Investments you mean our cash flow from investment activities?
Lukas Frank, Analyst: Yes, without so excluding M and A.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Yes. There
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: is nothing you should have in mind. We invest like EUR 2,000,000 a year into our platform, which is activated and then it's a depreciation is in the same size. And the investments the cash flow from investment activities is only that high negative high because we still invest into SUMITAS. We have now invested EUR 10,000,000 and our commitment is EUR 15,000,000. So we will invest another EUR 5,000,000 into Sumitas, but that's it.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: To add on it, we invest more in our IT, fortunately. It's rather EUR 10,000,000 ish, but eight of these 10 are reflecting the P and L and go to CapEx. Exactly. Thank you, Sebastian.
Lukas Frank, Analyst: And then small last question. Do we should expect any further one offs this year or is this every is everything done by 2024?
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: Nothing from the top 10 group. Yes. We're we're done there. Thanks.
Sarah, Moderator/Host: All right. Thank you so much. So we have the one person in the queue and then a couple of chat questions. So let's move on with Andreas Affen.
Andreas Affen, Analyst/Shareholder: Hello. Can you hear me?
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Yes. Hi, Andreas.
Andreas Affen, Analyst/Shareholder: Congrats with another impressive results. Definitely a happy shareholder here.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Yes. Happy with you, a happy shareholder.
Andreas Affen, Analyst/Shareholder: That's good. Maybe just starting with the new government, Judith. You seem to tell that it's already reflected in kind of the sentiment in Germany is, like, it's picking upwards. But have there been any talks around of the regulation from the new government, if that will change for you, either positive or negative direction?
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Yeah. So there's a lot of talks about, stabilizing the pension management systems. Obviously, in Germany, we have a a pay pay as go system with no, no investment, you know, to to to draw from other than the Scandinavian countries. So there's a lot of talks in the end. There's some driving factors, some that could be a little bit, like, distracting.
But in the end, this is nothing to really worry or or be happy about. So this will just it will not influence our business a lot. Let's put it this way.
Andreas Affen, Analyst/Shareholder: Okay. Then maybe on the the p and c inflation there in insurance premiums, how is that trending right now? Still, like, mid single digit or I think it was higher this year, but yes?
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: Yes. I think on the long run, you can calculate with 3% or 3.5% in a normal inflation environment. The last years, it was higher. Car, for instance, was above 10%. Health was around 15%.
Building was around 15%. But that's not, unfortunately or fortunately, not the normal development. So I think Sebastian, three percent, three point five percent is the right number. Okay.
Andreas Affen, Analyst/Shareholder: And then you did this, announce this major, major new insurance network with, I think, with 7,000 agencies that you would launch. Is that progressing on time and you still expect something from that this year? And then or is it like the other bank insurance project takes a long time?
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: No. It we are it's a silent launch. And at the moment, it's done with the test group, and we review the first results together with this network. And yes, we will see financial effects in 2025, and that's part of our guidance.
Andreas Affen, Analyst/Shareholder: Okay. And I think now I have been following you guys for five years, and I think this is the first conference call where we have gone through. And now we're now talking about the bank insurance. So I don't wanna let let you go that easy. So can you maybe just, yeah, some of the deals going well, some not going well?
What's kind of the summary on on those major deals there?
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: No. We're, it's a good observation, Andreas. Thank you. So obviously, the bank insurance development is still important, but it's not the only thing. That's the reason why we are also talking about other issues.
The development with the savings banks is quite good. We will see an eight digit turnover in 2025 from savings banks alone. And I would say it's within our plans. That would be my evaluation on this, Sebastian.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: It's it's a bad voice saying it's as slow as we planned.
Andreas Affen, Analyst/Shareholder: Okay. Makes sense. Yeah, I think what was my last question? Lucas was so good to ask all my questions here. Yeah.
I actually think that was that was what I had on on my schedule. So, yeah, I will let you guys move on to the next.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Thank you for your questions.
Edwin de Jong, Analyst: Thank you
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: for your trust.
Lukas Frank, Analyst: Bye.
Sarah, Moderator/Host: Thank you so much. So let's now move on with the questions from Edwin de Jong.
Edwin de Jong, Analyst: Hello, gentlemen. Can you hear me?
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Yes.
Edwin de Jong, Analyst: Good day. Yeah. A couple from my side, on, on, on the longer term guidance and the $4.50 to $50,550,000,000 turnover, $20.30. We're going back to, to the assumptions underlying, What part would you expect to be the insurance platform and what part would you be expecting the asset management side? E.
G. The top 10 like business. It will be the first. Shall I go on? Maybe easier.
And then I all mentioned that, one of the reasons of gross margin pressure was the competitive environment. And maybe it's good to have a few words on how that's developing and what has happened there in the last year. And thirdly, on also, so, you're nearing, I think, at the end of your investments, where you're going from 10,000,000 to 15,000,000. That is the, the end of it. What happens next?
And then are you going to sell it or, what's exactly the exit scenario there? Those were the questions.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Will you take the first off and add to the other two or?
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: Well, the first is the hardest. What is the share between asset management and insurance in 02/1930? Good question, Edwin. But as I said, it's very important to have a balanced asset mix. And if you look into the figures 2024, then asset management side has a bigger share than I expect at the beginning of the year.
Andreas Affen, Analyst/Shareholder: Yes, we do.
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: I would say, it would be wrong to just focus on one of both. So, we, the last ten years, we had a very hard focus on the insurance side. That was the reason why we then won all these tenders and had the development, you know, and you have seen. And now it's time not to refocus, but to also focus on the asset management side. With the top 10 acquisition, we have a very broad set of features, and we can do good very good offerings, especially on the managed account side.
So I I don't know.
Edwin de Jong, Analyst: One third, two thirds, more or less. Is is that a direction?
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: Rather forty, sixty, I would say.
Andreas Affen, Analyst/Shareholder: Okay. Okay.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Yeah. Competitive environment. Again, I can recommend this Oliver Wyman, ASCOMPACT study. Yeah. It it shows that, in the end, it all plays into the hands of the very big platforms.
And then, yes, that's where the competition comes from mainly. So that's two groups. One is ForFinance and one is CloudDirect. ForFinance still being a little bit bigger than us and CloudDirect a little bit smaller. But that's by far the top three market leaders.
And there's also the margin pressure coming from, basically, Blau giving away a lot of margin, paying out a lot of commission and Fondfinance having a okay margin, but then giving out checks for newcomers. And we see that both of these platforms are bought by private equity, HD Capital in the case of Fondfinance and Bob Pinkett in the case of Blau. And we can also see that, obviously, private equity investors want to earn money as well. So there is pressure on the cost base, and leading to different measures, layoff of people for the first time or, than, yeah, drawdown of services. So we can see that our platform is more and more better positioned as we always try to balance growth and profitability.
We'll see these efforts with the other platforms as well. So we expect that, this, yeah, free lunches times are over and, yeah, customers also have to pay their fees or their margins with the other competitors. So we think, gradually, the competitive environment is improving. And then as compared to the, like, big number of small platforms, obviously, size gets more buying power, gets more commission, volume, and then also has more margin to spend in IT. So it's a spiral upwards.
And you can see that the gap between, the big platforms and the smaller platforms is growing and growing because the small ones are not growing, the big ones are growing fast. So, in the end, there will be, it's a clear outcome of the game.
Edwin de Jong, Analyst: And also, already, this question is, sort of, also already, an increasing trend visible in multiples that are paid for the for smaller ones. Or is it still I would manage six way times, I think?
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: For the for the platform businesses, this mostly can be more. Yeah. It depends. So I think it will be it will be a little bit higher than that. So the last transactions was PMA, also bought by HD Capital, but we don't know the price.
So, but what I hear, it's it's more than 12 times. Right? So but I don't know.
Edwin de Jong, Analyst: For for for platforms. Yeah. Yeah.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: So, when it comes to Sumitas, yeah, you're you're right. So there's 5,000,000 more to be invested, though that means 50,000,000 in equity. But it's not a secret that Sumitas also has a debt facility of at least another 50,000,000. So, there's at least a hundred million to be spent for investments. I think this will carry through the year 2025, and then we have to, yeah, discuss internally whether to have more capital deployed or find other co investors, but this is still in the open.
Right now, as we said, we are happy with the development, and, so we have a very active m and a team that basically buys a broker every month. So there's a lot of activity there. And as there's another 2,000 brokers out there, above about a half a million in turnover that could be bought. So there's a lot of room to go. And, yeah, so right now, we are well financed, and we'd see, how this develops over the next twelve months, and then we have to take the decisions.
But, obviously, it's it's a it's a luxury problem more
Andreas Affen, Analyst/Shareholder: more or less. Yeah.
Edwin de Jong, Analyst: Yeah. So so you you could continue. If if you want, you can, maybe expand your cooperation with Humitas.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Yeah. And we see that the other models work quite nicely. Right? GTW, for example, now just became the biggest broker in Germany, being a accumulated, whatever, group of around 50 brokers. So, you can see there's future in this business model.
And so we are glad that we are among the top five players there and also can derive some growth from these aspects.
Edwin de Jong, Analyst: Okay. Maybe one more if I may look at this on the AI part. I think I mean, our recent roadshow, we already talked a little bit about that. But 12 to 15 people that you can replace by AI in a year. That's quite a big number I would say.
What kind of savings can we expect more in the twenty twenty five, twenty twenty six period, so to say?
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: The savings are that we do not have to increase our headcount in a relevant way. It's not that we will lay off people. We need all our people that we have. And as mentioned, we have a very motivated and very motivated team. So it's rather that we can show the information faster in a better quality and use the people that we have to do more, to do tasks that bring more value to the company.
So I would really like to look at it that way and not like cutting 10 jobs or 20 jobs with
Edwin de Jong, Analyst: That's also not how I meant it.
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: Sorry, which would be possible, but I think it would not be the right decision.
Edwin de Jong, Analyst: That's also not how I meant it. I meant it like, so you can do the same work if, if less people. But, that's
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: I would say in 20, five, at least 10 people, 26 more.
Edwin de Jong, Analyst: Okay. Okay. Those are really decent numbers. Thanks.
Sarah, Moderator/Host: Thank you so much for your questions. So in view of the time, shall we cover two or three questions from the chat as well?
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: Yes.
Sarah, Moderator/Host: Okay. So, rep proportion of the full year 2025 midterm guidance is already covered by the ramp up of existing partnerships.
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: 100% as mentioned. We did not plan anything that is not signed right now.
Sarah, Moderator/Host: Alright. So how's the progress with Pfau, physician on Skamabayan and the new European insurance company announced August?
Edwin de Jong, Analyst: We will
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: answer it. Sebastian? Yeah.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: So BKB, as we said, is is as slow as we planned. So, we the the savings banks are are starting to onboard. So now, there there might be a roll up. So they have an internal structural topic as well as the the responsible board member also changed the first meeting, and I'll just, yeah, to come. So, yes, a slow start there.
Also, the big European insurance company, as Ralph mentioned before, That was a soft launch, but we are happy with this development.
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: But we already have more than 200,000 contracts on our platform from this segment. So I would say, all in all, we have to be happy with this development. As always, could be faster, and we definitely have partnerships that develop faster.
Sarah, Moderator/Host: Right. Onboarding of big clients like Provincial Esposfischer von ETC has shown to be quite a long progress, process, with many of the biggest potential clients being in the onboarding phase. What are the biggest bottlenecks and what do you do to address them?
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: I mean, the biggest bottlenecks in this big partnerships are that the management of our partner who decides to do the cooperation with us has to convince internal people and has to do the internal project after onboarding. And that's all bigger projects, they suffer from this that the, let's say, ground speed of the corporation, since it started technically, is not that fast as it could be. So and what do we do? We service, we service, we service and we educate the people. And it's a long it's a marathon.
But if you look at the figures, we already have 25%, which is like EUR 50,000,000, EUR 60 million coming from these corporations. So again, we have a lot of these corporations and they will carry us in the future and will help us to come from February today to to €500,000,000 in, in 02/1930.
Sarah, Moderator/Host: Alright. On what evaluation metric is the goal of 1,000,000,000 market cap based on? What number of the shares would you expect in 02/1930 to reach the 1,000,000 a billion market cap? I guess you need to increase the number of shares for acquisitions.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Well, obviously, Ralph and I, we hate dilution. Right? So it's like we are diluting since the foundation of the company in 02/2002, we are diluted quite significantly. So, we have the same interest, the two of us than all the other share shareholders here and investors that we do not like to dilute. By now, we could increase our EBITDA significantly.
So on the debt side, we have some vulnerability and some leeway. So you would rather expect us to add to debt if we do M and A transactions than to do capital raises. And so if we would think about capital raises maybe to increase liquidity a little bit, but then this will be rather small. So we do not expect to get to have a dilution effect. We can do this by organic growth and, emulate transaction using debt.
So good news.
Sarah, Moderator/Host: Alright. And then I guess two questions left. Can you add some color to your thoughts about the build up of falls and whether you would consider another share buyback as an alternative at this point?
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Yeah. The the the profits of the the the only luxury problems that that we basically have is that, our liquidity in the shares is low. Right? So it's like, obviously, we have a a big number of happy holders that are trusting the company and and just do not really sell. And, this is why there's not a lot of movement.
Most of the shares go into block transactions away from the stock markets, good and bad, but every seller finds a buyer or the other round, but it doesn't look that liquid. And we saw that the share buybacks really helped to to or or let's say, it was contributing to the fact that that the share is liquid. And this is why, basically, it was one of the reasons why we stopped share buybacks and did not have another one. Right? So, yeah, Ralph, maybe you want to add to that.
Ralf Konrad, CFO, JDC Group AG: Yeah. It's always the same discussion from a question of capital efficiency. If we think that there's a the valuation of the company is higher than it is valued at the stock exchange, then a buyback makes sense. We have the profitability and we have the cash for this. If we do not invest the cash into M and A transactions, and then it's always that's the discussion between liquidity and capital efficiency.
So we didn't decide to do the next share buyback program, but we also did not decide not to do any again. So maybe this is the concrete, unconcrete answer.
Sarah, Moderator/Host: Thank you so much. So in the last question, and I'm quite not sure if we already covered it. So with market share of 0.6%, why has your market share not grown at a faster rate if the value proportion is so compelling? Is growth curtailed by the capacity within JDC, or is the market slow to transition to your platform?
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Yeah. Thank you for this question. The reason is the market is quite big. Right? So the the the entire premium is 6.5% of German GDP, and there's 30,000,000,000 in commission paid out to German intermediaries.
Right? So also with our growth rates, right, we're now coming from point five to point six. We're doing our best to really roll out the platform as fast as we can, introduce as as many major customers as fast as we can. But, yes, that's, we we are highly motivated to to, grow our market share. And it's it's, we're doing a lot, but, yes, obviously, we are the the most impatient of of all in the market, and it's it's a very slow transition.
That's really true.
Sarah, Moderator/Host: Hi. Thank you so much. So with this, we will come to the end of today's earnings call. So thank you everyone for joining. You've shown interest in all your questions.
And a big thank you also to you, Sebastian, Raif, and Ramona for your time. So from my side, I wish you all a lovely day and hand back to Sebastian for some final remarks.
Sebastian Grafmeier, CEO, JDC Group AG: Yes. Thank you very much, Sarah. So we want to take the opportunity again to thank our team, right, to stem almost 30% growth. That's quite an operational challenge, but, this, we have very high image factors as well, very good satisfaction of our clients and our customers, also among the institutional clients. So that's a very good sign for us.
And also with our investors, we get, very good feedback. So thank you also for that. Yeah, the best feedback we can get is the stock markets for basically all of you. As Ralph mentioned, it's not easy times for a small cap, especially in a European market. But, we can see that, we will go on to deliver quarter after quarter after quarter as promised.
And, you can see always, the last years, we tell you what we do and what we plan, and then we fulfill what we're planning. And, yeah, the quarter will show you that we are growing, the growth is growing, that earnings are growing more than turnover. And this is why both, Ralph and I and the team from Warner Marcus, we've been convinced that, we have a good chance to become the market leader. We have a good chance to get to a valuation that can reach a billion. So we have all the cards in our hands, and we will play them right.
And then trust us, as you trusted us five years ago, I think we have a good view on the market, on the developments, and we're and that's not optimism. It's just like a, yeah, a continuing approach step by step by step, we will conquer the market. And this, yeah, then will be very positive numbers for all of us. So thank you very much for your trust, and thank you very much to listening a little bit more than, the the years before, but happy to take more questions you might have via phone, email. And then, yeah, we're looking at very positive year 2025.
Thank you very much, and have
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